Talk:Elder Gods of Earth
Disambiguation Some disambiguation or wider page will be needed given Elder Gods seems to be the name of many beings (possibly related): * Ancient (starting at 12 billion years in the past) gods in many places of the universe (Thor: God of Thunder) * Earth's Elder Gods including Chton, Set and Gaea * Earth's Elder Gods Magik killed using Legion * The Gibborim who may be Elder Gods, Elderspawn or something else * IIRC, they're also some in Conan's series I will try to sort it but if someone knos more about it, feel free to add references here. Undoniel (talk) 12:46, March 18, 2017 (UTC) :Are also named that way the N'Garai and Old Ones. A disambiguation could be Elder Gods (the current page should be changed to another name) or Elder Gods (Disambiguation). Undoniel (talk) 21:03, January 1, 2018 (UTC) :: Agreed. Part of the issue is that Gerry Conway seems to have been under the impression that the Elder Gods were Marvel's stand-in for the Cthulhu Mythos's Great Old Ones when writing ''Carnage'' Vol 2. To be fair the Darkhold was based on the Necronomicon and in-universe the latter was a copy of the former (though given the Great Old Ones exist in the Marvel Universe and are unrelated to Chthon that raises a few question); but unlike all his past and subsequent appearances, Chthon is depicted as a Cthulhu lookalike who speaks R'lyehian rather than as a grey-skinned humanoid in a black cloak; and the other evil Elder Gods he summons in were similar tentacled eldritch monsters. Arawn 999 (talk) 00:57, January 2, 2018 (UTC) The Elder Gods / Old Ones confusion predates Carnage. The Appendix previously did a small break down of it: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/appclar.htm#elder Monolith616 (talk) 01:09, January 2, 2018 (UTC) :Except for a later note on those stating the contrary, we can only consider that is another form of Chthon, and that his Elder Gods are either other degenerated Elder Gods or generic demons. If there is an interview on the subject, it could be interesting to some pages here on the wikia (aditionnally, I've created the pages Old Ones and Ancients, if you happen to find references on the subject). :The problem is indeed older than this very issue. :Undoniel (talk) 01:14, January 2, 2018 (UTC) :: I guess the only way we can get a straight answer is by pestering Gerry Conway on Twitter and hoping he deigns to give a straight answer on the subject. Arawn 999 (talk) 01:36, January 2, 2018 (UTC) :::Many-Angled Ones are also called "Elder Gods" (the Elder Gods) and "elder gods".Undoniel (talk) 13:05, January 2, 2018 (UTC) From what I read, Chthon could be both an Old One and an Elder God, given the Old Ones aren't all of the same species.Undoniel (talk) 18:30, January 4, 2018 (UTC) : It's not just Chthon, though. Carnage Vol. 2 treats the Elder Gods and Old Ones as one-in-the-same. Arawn 999 (talk) 19:07, January 4, 2018 (UTC) ::For now, we can: ::* consider that the Elder Gods are named both Old Ones and Great Old Ones (the use of those three names doesn't prevent both groups to remain apart). The Old Ones were already named Elder Gods (as well as the Many-Angled Ones), so the reserve doesn't seem crazy to me. ::* consider that the very story of the Old Ones war involving Chthon involved members of both groups in both sides. The war is mentioned to have happened 1 million years, which is waaaaaay after the death of most Elder Gods. The war would had been 1 or 2 against 1 or 2. Meanwhile, the Old Ones could still have been around. That would mark their general banishment from Earth, where I only had a reference for Shuma-Gorath, also a million years ago, by Sise-Neg. ::Given the previous points, we should consider that apart from Chthon, who would now be listed as an Old One and (possible? he isn't explicitly listed, but seems to be) Great Old One, it is the Old Ones and not the Elder Gods that were mentioned. It's the only to make it work, + we've already seen Old Ones being part of other groups: Erlik being a Tenger, the star-head Old Ones, the True Faeries and Asteroth's species. ::Undoniel (talk) 20:57, January 4, 2018 (UTC) :::To be put clearer Chthon's part: It's established that Elder Gods aren't the same group Old Ones, but nothing prevents Chthon to be (as an individual) both.Undoniel (talk) 21:25, January 4, 2018 (UTC) :::: The problem is that Carnage Vol. 2 does treat the Elder Gods - not just Chthon - as being synonymous with the Old Ones/Great Old Ones. Both Victoria Montesi and Obrien treat them as being one-in-the-same. Arawn 999 (talk) 20:48, January 5, 2018 (UTC) Could you add the parts that hints or explicitly state that. We've seemingly different interpretation of the issue, so I might have missed some parts (apart from mixed-up use of the name "Elder Gods"), or interpreted in the wrong way those. From where I stand, it stop to that: Chthon (an Elder God) led his side of gods against their peers 1MY ago (not early enough for either side to be constituted of "THE" Elder Gods (dead at that point, save for 4), while nothing prevent them from being Old Ones). I'm looking for any kind of explanation on CBR, hope I'll find at least some remarks on the possible mix-up.Undoniel (talk) 18:28, January 7, 2018 (UTC) : Most of the issues call Chthon and his ilk "Elder Gods", but Issue 14 in particular uses the terms "Elder Gods", "Old Ones", and "Great Old Ones" interchangeably to refer to Chthon and the group of deities to whom he belonged. In Issue 13, Victoria Montesi states there was a war between two factions of Elder Gods - one good and one evil - and that Chthon's evil faction lost and was sealed away; which is reiterated in Issue 14 by both Carnage (reading from the Darkhold) and Obrien.Arawn 999 (talk) 18:37, January 7, 2018 (UTC) ::Alright, I didn't miss most (I'm still going through the whole series to find some clues). ::*''Most of the issues call Chthon and his ilk "Elder Gods", but Issue 14 in particular uses the terms "Elder Gods", "Old Ones", and "Great Old Ones" interchangeably to refer to Chthon and the group of deities to whom he belonged'': ::**It is established that the Old Ones and Elder Gods are separated (although a retcon could change that, but without an explicit statement, I don't think that what happened). ::**The Old Ones have already been named Elder Gods. But not the other way around. It could mean that Chthon isn't mentioned as part of the Demiurge's Elder Gods, but as part of another group, which is possible (the Old Ones being not a race but closer to a loosely-affiliated group of higher beings, so an evil Elder God could fit in). Or that Elder Gods are named Old Ones, but ::*''a war between two factions of Elder Gods - one good and one evil - and that Chthon's evil faction lost and was sealed away; which is reiterated in Issue 14 by both Carnage (reading from the Darkhold) and Obrien'': Two things goes against the idea that it is the Elder God conflict (both arguments could be errors due to approximation or faith into a slightly rearranged Chthon belief, but): ::**The early conflict was slightly different: It was seemingly a brawl initiated by Set devouring a fellow for power, everyone copying him, and with Demogorge ending up devouring everyone except Oshtur and Gaea (who didn't degenerated) and Set and Chthon who joined forces against him then fled away. As I said previously, Old Ones have been confirmed by handbook to be called Elder gods, so nothing impossible to reconcile here. ::**Carnage mentioned the conflict being 1MY. The Elder Gods conflict happened 1GY ago (Atum is told to have "one billion years of life experience" in Thor & Hercules encyclopedia. ::**The war in Carnage is told to be fought with extradimensional being in #15. The Elder Gods aren't of those, but most Old Ones are. ::**The mention to the Great Old Ones made me think that it was indeed about THE Old Ones, and not simply another name to the Elder Gods. But that doesn't weight much as a proof. ::Undoniel (talk) 20:34, January 7, 2018 (UTC) Dammit, I re-read the issues while searching something for the [[Ancient Things|"ancient "things" "]] (also named Ancients, and possibly-unclearly Old Ones - the Ancient Aqueoes/Elders being also named Old Ones), and in a new eye, it seems that this run indeed merge the Elder Gods of Earth, the Great Old Ones and the Ancients, considering. * In , there is a mention of a war between "cosmic entities"/"ancient gods"/"ancients". ** The greatest of Ancients/them was Chthon, who was thought destroyed but only slept. ** Before slumbering, he wrote the Darkhold on flesh, then stone, then parchment, then paper. *** The earlier tale stated he wrote those on enchanted parchment, before fleeing Atum: that could be the same war. *** But the Elder Gods weren't divided in two groups but rather everyone against all and against Atum+Gaea(+Demiurge). Chhton simply gave Set the idea of fleeing. * In : ** it is stated that Chthon was the greatest of the Old Ones/Great Old Ones, and the leader of one side ** the war was stated to be set a million years ago. I would tend to say the datation might be a wild guess or an expression, said by Carnage. ** But the gods are stated to be interdimensional beings, which fits for Ancients and Old Ones. Nevertheless, given how the two groups (Old Ones and Elder Gods, the Ancients bit is only a subissue to the Old Ones so far) are irreconciable in story, I would approve to keep things the way they are (although they're likely in the wrong order). Can't wait for the handbooks or something else to clear that up. Undoniel (talk) 17:24, October 15, 2019 (UTC) Disambiguation page I've created Elder Gods (Disambiguation) to already start to work. Given Elder Gods (Earth) wouldn't be accurate enough, I think Elder Gods (Demiurge) (their "father") is the best name possible for that page for now.Undoniel (talk) 11:39, January 5, 2018 (UTC) :I've found the term Elder Gods of Earth in a handbook. Seems good to me. I will start using it for disambiguation and auto-categorization purpose soon, except if there is another opinion here. Undoniel (talk) 22:56, June 20, 2018 (UTC) Elder Gods of Limbo I'm gonna start a page about the Elder Gods of Limbo, given the lack of relation we're given between them and the "true" Elder Gods.Undoniel (talk) 08:37, January 24, 2018 (UTC)